Curse

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Back in prophesies days, nothing was out of reach to anyone - perfect weapons, fissure armour, everything. A hardcore player could get them by grinding and a casual player could get them by playing smart.

Factions came along and things were more or less the same, however they added a little hiccup in the middle where you had to collect 10k faction before proceeding. It wasn't such a terrible thing as you could obtain all the faction by just questing.

Nightfall enters and adds the sunspear general requirement before entering vabbi - again, not such a big deal as you can get all the required faction by questing. Then anet really gives us the first hint that they're going to leave behind the principles that made GW great - Lightbringer. Casual players were suddenly no longer on even footing with hardcore players. Completing the nightfall campaign and side quests gets you slightly over rank 4, meaning hardcore players who are willing to grind away for a title get double the damage reduction and double the bonus damage of casual players.

The next wrong step that they took was with the PvE only skills, adding yet another inequality to the game. If anet had stuck to their principles, these skills would max out effectiveness at exactly the number of points you get for completing quests, not the amount of points you get for FFF'ing 2 hrs a day for 3 months. By all means keep the titles there for people to work for if they are so inclined, but adding in game effects to the grind was a blatant corruption of the ideals they sold us on.

Last but not least they give us GW:EN, where 2/3 of the npc's will not talk to you despite you having completed the game and all side quests and almost every skill works twice as well for a grinder than for a casual player. I'd pretend to be shocked, but honestly you could see it coming from a mile away.

In conclusion, yes /3 cheers prophesies

Bahumhat · Sep 04, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Prophecies was Awesome, i truley liked it.
Factions was sweet at first, new areas, new henchies, new armor. but after the excitment it was tedious.
Nightfall was boring from the begining, good thing I started with my other characters.
GW:EN... I'm still playing and loving every bit, grind is nothing. I play WoW along with guildwars, and even tho its recycled I still love the new armor.

Trav The Ripper · Sep 04, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Prophecies FTW!! it was the best and has the most re-play value IMO.

haggus71 · Sep 04, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

So true. I try to take characters from other games through prophecies just for the escape. It makes sense that Anet would use it for their expansion. It garnered a lot more of the rpg fan base. With the other games it just seemed they catered more and more to the monkey crowd, aka grinders, and lost a lot of what got so many into the game in the beginning.

As far as the pve-only skills are concerned, when they hit so many skills with the nerf bat, they had to do that just to try and sweeten the bad taste in everyone's mouth that they can't make one side fair without screwing the other. GG for at least separating the servers for pvp and pve in GW2. That is, if they even have enough people interested by then.

Malice Black · Sep 04, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

There's no way to say this without sounding like a whiner, but why do you still play if you're so unimpressed? I think you like it more than you're letting on because you still log on and remain active in the community.

On topic:

I think the titles are grindy and might be reasonable if they were account-based rather than character-based. Doing the storyline alone isn't enough to attain the points for armourers to speak with you so an element of repetitive behaviour [grind] is necessary for these aspects of the game. I'm interested in the Asura Title Track because the skills are cool but to get the most out of them i have to farm thousands of points. Points require time moreso than skill.

I suppose when any game gives significance to 'numbers' (in this case titles) there will be grind. One of the reasons Prophecies had staying-power for me is because there were no numbers to achieve, maintain and to compete with other people. There's fame and XP but fame is PvP, which I personally don't do, and XP which goes unnoticed once you reach 142,000 unless you want to brag in the XP screenshot thread.

I'm not angry about the decisions ANet made with titles but I've just lost a little respect for them since they've went and stomped on one of their fundamental principles.

Did I state anywhere I didn't like Chapter 1?

I just said it was long

The jungle was dull, annoying and totally skipped the 2nd time round.

lacasner · Sep 04, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Prophecies was imo the best for me because I had no desire to play through a storyline more than once, when I did it with one character I was satisfied to run through it with the rest I made. The rest of the chapters really hampered this and it was a big turn off to me pve wise.

Now, don't even get me started with PvP and what skills and builds were brought in..

Darkhorse · Sep 04, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

The main thing I liked about Prophecies was you could go out of town and just wander. Having entrances and exits to different zones restricted wasn't so nice, but it was necessary because of the way the game worked.

Losing that was one of two things I didn't like about Factions, the other being that the size of Kaineng made no sense in the context of Guild Wars where the next largest city was literally less than 1% of the size. The characters weren't well developed either, because the game was over before they got the chance. Nightfall addressed all of those problems IMO, but I still preferred the feel of Kryta. I wish I could nail it down but I just like the pseudo-medieval fantasy setting better than the Arabian. Realm of Torment was nice though. Nicely surreal, reminded me of Diablo 2's act 4 and Chrono Trigger's The End of Time. Beautifully done 'overworld' map too.

With all that, I'm quite liking Eye of the North. Finished the campaign already, plus about six dungeons and jaunted into another three. The only thing I'd like to see is some linking areas between Prophecies and EotN, like how Crystal Overlook joined Prophecies and Nightfall. I just like having the option to walk everywhere, even if map travel (thankfully) makes it unnecessary. Characters there were done really well despite a small amount of screen time because each arc was so short. Pyre and Gwen were pretty well written... and designed. I wonder if Katy has done every one of the cute creatures in the game. Hehe.

All up I'd still give my vote to Prophecies, but I have to say it's only because EotN is smaller. I'd like to spend some time north of Giant's Basin, and the Charr homelands were a little small on the surface, albeit nicely designed considering. I still have to figure out what the giant armadillo shell is about.

Oh, and I'd still like to see the Ascalon Settlement have an anniversary party. Hehe.

[DE] · Sep 04, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Hip hip hooray!

Hip hip hooray!

Hip hip hooray!

....

Well that was gay.

darkknightkain · Sep 04, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

/signed. cheers, cheers, cheers for Prophecies!

Prophecies, although the progression was on the slow side, everything else was great! A unique game that advertises there is no need to grind.

Though I still like Factions the most. No grind at all. Level 20 and ascension reached in good pace. 10k factions spreaded out among 8 characters (1 per profession) each only need to be responsible for their little share of 1.25k (primary quest to get there 750 + one quest 750 more than enough covered it). Also various Smiths, Crafters, Quartermasters they have everything readily available from Kaineng onwards. The only gripe If I have to put it is just the blocking gates.

Nightfall does a 180 and marked the beginning of Grind Wars. Can't even progress in the game without grinding 2.5k Sunspear x 10 characters (1 per profession). The only saving grace is Koss and co. whom you can bring back to enjoy more of Prophecies and Factions areas that I weren't able to go as freely before.

Grind of the North. All I can say is I am thankful I did get the preorder bonus pack to see the preview so I only spent $5 USD.

blue.rellik · Sep 04, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

That statement is still 100% true. You do not need to spend alot of time to get max items. 1k armor is as good as FoW armor. Greens are as good as high end weapons. Want to know the difference between 1k armor and FoW armor, green items and high end items? E-peen. You do not need e-peen to complete the game.

I must quote this for the sheer amount of truthery in this. All the people are complaining because they want the best things in the game without putting any effort in it

darktyco · Sep 04, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

I must quote this for the sheer amount of truthery in this. All the people are complaining because they want the best things in the game without putting any effort in it

First of all, if you were paying attention, you would realize that people dislike grind, not effort.

Second of all, (and again, it would help if you were paying attention,) you would realize that is exactly what this thread is for: to celebrate Prophecies, where you could get the best things in the game without any grind (but yes, it took effort)!

blue.rellik · Sep 04, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Dislike grind? Grind is how things are achieved (resonably) in real life

If you want a house, you obviously will have to work to get one and pay it off. You don't just go and get a one and not worry about paying it. Same with any other luxary in real life, you need to work to get them

The principle applies here, if you want the best stuff then you work for it, you don't just lounge around in Lion's Arch screaming "PLZ GIVE ME LOTZ OF OB SHARZ AND ECTOS!". If you want to max the titles then you'll need to put in the hours to get it. If they were easy to achieve then where's the point of even having them in the first place? Everyone would be running around with 'People Know Me' and full Obsidian Armour and dual Tormented weapons

But of course most people don't care. They don't want to put in the hours to get something. They'll much prefer to sit all day whining at everything ANet does like 'OH NOES! SEED OF LIFE IS NERFED F*** U ANET!!!!!! NOW IT IZ THE SUXOR!!!!! I H8 U BUT I'LL STILL PLAY ALL THE GAMES YOU MAKE EVEN THOUGH I HATE EVERYTHING U DO!!!!!!!!'

Aethon · Sep 04, 2007, 05:12 AM // 05:12

I do have to say that I've honestly never played through all of Tyria on a single character. I did bits and pieces with a few, and yet I do have to say that the missions are better than Factions, by far. Factions gets me to level 20 a lot faster, but the grind is present (at least in my eyes) in the form of forcing me through a horrible mission/storyline progression, if you understand what I'm saying. If you use a foreign character, Nightfall is great. Lightbringer points do have a big effect in some spots, and that sucks, but if you can manage to step around those areas as quick as possible, the rest is just fine. EotN is no comment, as I have other business before dedicating myself to it, but from the preview event I can say that something is strikingly different, making it stand out from the other entries; I can't put my finger on what it is, but it feels strange, neither good or bad.

But in the spirit of off-topic conversations, here's just a quick reminder of GW's original vision: Rewarding players for skill instead of grind. Like doing several hard dungeon/quest/missions to unlock the armor/consumables/&c. It's more fun, it takes more effort, and it takes less time/grind.

As much as you say it is optional, there are many players who are put off solely and entirely by the grind requirements; they could be the best player ever, but if they don't have the time to wander around randomly killing things, well too bad for them. And of course, the player with a mediocre setup and nothing else to do collects the reward. Essentially, Arena.net is rewarding the wrong kind of dedication, probably after jumping on the whole "casual MMO" cancer that's spreading amongst game developers, which incidentally leads to games that are less skillful, usually include more grinding, and in this case alienates the original target demographic - why do you think the topic is brought up so much in the fourms? Casual players don't use forums, but more importantly, they also aren't who the game was originally designed for.

Azza · Sep 04, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Scoot

This is what i have been saying since i finished factions. And certinally when NF came out, Heros IMO completly ruined the game.

All tho i agree prophecies is the best of all the campaign's(including GW:EotN), I do not agree hero's ruined the game, it acctually made it better for me, so i didnt have to team up with Pug's who screw up alot, so if prophecies had hero's there would be no contest from the others at all.

blue.rellik · Sep 04, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aethon

But in the spirit of off-topic conversations, here's just a quick reminder of GW's original vision: Rewarding players for skill instead of grind.

That's bad game design. LITERALLY. Making a game based purely on skill is a terrible game, it makes it unaccessible for the casual players or players that can't dedicate themselves. A good game should have multiple levels of playing the game (in a FPS, this is done with different difficulty settings) and basing a game purely off skill does not do that

The problem is trying to balance the game so that it caters for all audiences, both hardcore AND casual, which as far as game design goes, Guild Wars has done very well (and before you start disagreeing with me, I've studied game design and the fundamentals so I have some idea on what is good game design)

Quote:

Like doing several hard dungeon/quest/missions to unlock the armor/consumables/&c. It's more fun, it takes more effort, and it takes less time/grind.

People have the option to do that currently in Guild Wars.......

Quote:

As much as you say it is optional, there are many players who are put off solely and entirely by the grind requirements;

Blah. I hate that 'grind' arguement. Nearly every game that has any method of 'achieving' something has grind. Guild Wars is no different

Quote:

they could be the best player ever, but if they don't have the time to wander around randomly killing things, well too bad for them.

If they don't have the time to play then they're an idiot for picking up a MMORPG

Quote:

And of course, the player with a mediocre setup and nothing else to do collects the reward.

That's an exageration. Fullstop. While most of PvE is hardly the hardest game around I have seen a lot of 'bad setups' not even get past any of the missions near the end of the game.

Quote:

Essentially, Arena.net is rewarding the wrong kind of dedication, probably after jumping on the whole "casual MMO" cancer that's spreading amongst game developers,

Nearly every RPG is a grind. I can literally not think of any extensive RPG that does not ahve grind

Quote:

which incidentally leads to games that are less skillful, usually include more grinding, and in this case alienates the original target demographic - why do you think the topic is brought up so much in the fourms?

Funny that. The more someone plays the game, the better they eventually become which in turn makes them more skilled overall. It's a circular arguement that defeats itself.

sindex · Sep 04, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I think Prophecies was a great start, but far from a perfect campaign in the GW series. There was a bunch of problems introduced when Prophecies came out, that is still being debated today. I still see huge divides, via PvE vs. PvP and each of their own sub factions.

I think Prophecies carried a very weak storyline; enhanced by stereotypical fantasy elements thrown into one. The whole “tragedy in Ascalon,” felt like a forced effect; of peaceful kingdom torn apart by a greater evil has been done before. I have to give the relocation thing some originality to its design though. Yet at the end there were huge plot-holes that still have yet to be answered.

The gameplay itself only carried you so far; and people that were done with the original campaign called it quits. Many people who I have known from that time period are gone. There was no real replay value in Prophecies what so ever. Once you were done there were only two options. One was to wait till the next campaign came out or farm your way for some of the elite items.

Now there was the big problem: “excessive farming and grinding,” to which they should be in the same boat; but the only difference farming felt a bit more optional. However inherent farming introduced of course like many other MMO’s the gold sellers and bots. This of course divided the community up again; for those who put the effort and time, to those who like the shortcuts.

The only difference between then and now is the fact excessive grinding and farming have become one. You have to farm for those materials and grind for that title, to get that piece of armor you always wanted.

Don’t get me wrong there are many things I have loved over Guild Wars evolution, but I feel that Prophecies is far from being perfect (just like the other campaigns). The only difference is the bar instead of being raised to new heights, was being thrown around in different directions. I also believe if most of you truly hated the other campaigns then most of you would not be here today.

Hyper.nl · Sep 04, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

I'm glad that GW is NOT a skill-only game.

I do NOT want to play a game that only rewards players who use kookie-cutter builds, not a game where only those Korean players with lightning fast button press reflexes stand a chance.

I neither like those team-build strategies with build nazi's that disallow any casual player or creative build to take part.

No, give me a balance between skill and grinding or just a traditional RPG that focusses on items and level.

-Loki- · Sep 04, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

In original GW, the optional things really were optional. Maxed collector axe was as good as HoH drop.

Since when is a max collector axe not as good as a HoH drop anymore? I wasn't aware collector weapons stats were decreased, or HoH drops stats were increased.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

With introduction of titles, salvaging and lockpicks became grind based (and a horrible grind at that).

Salvaging is free, since you get salvage/id kits from quest rewards. Just turn in the 3 million Kournan Coins you got doing the Kourna quests. That's not grind - doing a quest is not grind. Repeatedly doing something for a reward is grind. Lockpicks are optional - you don't need to run chests to get max equipment. Collectors and crafters have them extremely cheap (hell, there's a crafter in EotN that crafts Dwarven axes for 5k).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Later, an increasing number of things became title dependant.

And that increasing number of things is all optional. It's for vanity weapons and armour, flavour skills, extremely small boosts to things like not breaking a weapon when you salvage, etc. None of it is required to play the game and have competitive equipment.

Faer · Sep 04, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Hooray for Prophecies, where one could afford a set or two of prestige armor simply by playing through the campaign (and not being an idiot with one's funds). Did we need to buy that Grotto armor the moment we stumbled upon the outpost? No, not really; but it sure was nice to be able to without having to farm for a few days to afford it!

Hooray for Prophecies, where Missions and Quests took a while to complete, but offered some engaging material to keep us interested, instead of rushing us through at breakneck speeds to save an NPC who is just going to end up getting killed anyway.

Hooray for Prophecies, where the storyline was epic, even though it was riddled with plot-holes; where old heroes never truly died, until we decided we needed to cap their Elite Skill (R.I.P. Rurik!); where even the villains could smile and laugh, every once in a while.

Yep, that's three from me.

glountz · Sep 04, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Actually in GWEN there's some fast ways to gain factions if you are skilled.
One of them is to do hard dungeons. For example Raggar's menagerie will grant you 3000 Ebon points. This dungeon is hard but you can go to the end by avoiding several mobs and killing fast and intelligently.
However that is still grind. I agree collector weapons are max so there's no forced grind in max equipment. However, for PVE skills that's quite another story. Some of them are so good that grinding titles actually boost a lot PVE grinder's power. Just look at "Save yourselves" or skills like "Drunken master".
Maxed, they are just scary, so scary that many of them has become stapple skills for my bar in PVE.
And that is grind, I mean, giving more power to those who play longer against those who play better.